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 LIONHEARTS in FUTURE

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subbuteo forever 207

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PostSubject: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:50 am

gents,



we cancelled the september meet of lionhearts due to only four of us bing available.

numbers werent much better in july.



to be honest, this is becoming far too much like hard work to organise as quite often i have to send several emails to get a "yes" or a "no" or even a "maybe".



we are set to be at fingers stadium 30/10 which looks set to be well attended but i would have to say that for the following meet scheduled for december if we dont get a decent response then i will hang up my boots organising lionhearts and either someone else will have to do it or the club will simply fold due to lack of interest



it would be a shame but i suppose all good things come to an end.

i appreciate quite few others are committed to the wycombe league which is fair enough.



let me know if you think you can commit to a flick once every six weeks on a regular basis



regards



jon
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ESSGEE

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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:31 am

It looks as though Wycombe is going to fold, Jon.

Everything was cancelled again last week, with Mark thinking that Gerald and Adam had decided to attend the Lionhearts gig instead.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:58 am

so gerald no show there either?he pulled out of lionhearts about a week before.

adam did contact me on sunday asking me to confirm lionhearts cancelled.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:08 am

I rang Mark on Saturday to see what was happening, and he just said that he hadn't heard anything from anybody. He told me that he had sent fixtures out to the players concerned, but had no response, so he decided to cancel.

Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:16 am

Really not sure what people want, to be honest Jon.

Maybe the 'Subby Folk' aren't for motivating.



Smile



Had I known things were going to collapse again on Sunday, I would have gone to the Lionhearts meeting. I just thought it was right to honour my first commitment.



Gonna go back to my TABLE BEACH SOCCER, me thinks.

Just making myself a new arena now, to keep me entertained through the winter nights.



afro
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:47 am

It's probably because of the summer hols Jon, and also people having to travel so far. With other family commitments over recent months, i'm sure people are finding it hard to give a definate yes, so as not to disapoint if something turns up. It'll probably pick up over the winter.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:55 am

jon



ian is right , i have been on holiday so thats why i could not make one of the meets plus the missus went away with her friends for a break ,just been unfortunate timing otherwise i would have been there


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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:04 pm

we'll see and i hope you are right.

maybe 3/9 was too close to august.



all i can tell you is some people are very hard to get an answer out of whatever time of year it is and i simply dont have the time to keep chasing people.



december should be a good one in that case and if so we continue on our merry way



cheers
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:29 am

Personally I think the title of this thread sums up the sorry situation myself , but then again that's just my opinion ....maybe Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:39 am

eh jim? scratch
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:41 am

it doesnt have to end but we do need more people to come forward and play on a more regular basis.
i dont mean a dozen or so but just 6-8 would be nice

try for december meet and we shall see what occurs....
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:58 am

Generally speaking, where are all the Lionhearts? Haven't seen or heard from most in months.

Also hasn't escaped my notice that none of the original players from the Lionhearts club are supporting the Anglo-Italian Tournament in March. You know my reason, Jon, but why isn't anybody else attending? What kind of reasons are stopping regulars from participating.

Should there be some club discussion about players' expectations / wishes / difficulties for the new year, do you think Jon? Or find out what players have liked in particular about the Lionhearts meetings over the last two years or so, to make sure those aspects are preserved. Just a bit of market research really, before you do your sales pitch for the December gig. What do ya think?

On top of that, we know that Old Subbuteo is popular in Italy, but what does the future hold for the game in this country? Where is it going? Is the Old Subbuteo player fast becoming extinct as the current players start to drift away?

Or is the Old Subbuteo movement more about collecting, with a little bit of play thrown in now and then, but not really deemed to be an essential part of the love affair?

I don't know, but I would love to hear all the different viewpoints from Lionhearts players, and enthusiasts alike, in the hope that some clear direction might emerge.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:51 pm

It think the lack of numbers have just been down to people being busy in most instances.

Me and Jon both having Flu didn't help last weekend, but that can't be helped.

Obviously distance is the biggest factor, especially for me Crying or Very sad Otherwise i'd be playing all the time.

Also...this is going to sound controversial, but many of us are singing off different hymn sheets when it comes to how we play.

It gets to a point, where you stop enjoying playing against someone and it doesn't feel like making the effort. Tbh, at my last meet, i had a few enjoyable games, but had more fun socially, rather than playing.

How would i make the game more enjoyable?

1 I would make it that we start all games with recognised Football formations.

2 Polishing. Only allow it once at the start of the day, then no more. Not between games or ever. More time is spent polishing, rather than playing, and it also stops people socialising.

3 Do as much as we can to get away from anything Table Football related, and think more Subbuteo and 'real' Football.

4 Bring back more fun into the games, rather than seriousness. One way of doing this, maybe, would be to introduce Throw in figures and Corner Kickers.That would really make it fun and less serious.

Also...and it is my biggest bugbear, but some people really do need to learn to Flick properly. Dragging your player back into a defensive position is so infruriating. You may as well pick it up and place it there.

I think there are a hardcore, that want to play Subbuteo. Then there are a few who prefer FISTF.

I think Gully and Lee would make great Oldsubbuteo players. Maybe they would like to play at the Club meets.

Just some ideas, on how i think we could bring the fun back.

Over to you guys...
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:19 pm

Good post, Ian.

Nothing controversial about it as far as I'm concerned. It only becomes controversial when people insist on trying to impose their vision on others. The idea here, is to simply state your preferences / likes, and the things that put you off playing. But most importantly, not make anybody else wrong.

Smile

If we can come to the board keeping in mind that nobody on this forum is right all of the time. Or better still, that there is no right or wrong, just differences of opinion.

I agree with you, I think there are lots of players wanting / expecting / hoping for different things out of a subby club. So thought this might be a good idea.

In response to your points ...

1. As a 4-3-3 supporter, I don't have a problem with formations. But reckon they are pretty much out the window a minute into the game anyway. It's a formation that I keep, regardless of code ( OLD or FISTF ).

2. For me, the joy in playing comes from being able to exercise a level of mastery and control over what you are doing ( the joy of getting something right when you meant it ). I think, if you play with the old heavyweights this is much easier to do, but Santiago and TopSpin bases don't really allow for you to curl consistently, like the old fellas. I like to put passing moves together that look a bit like real football, but find it incredibly frustrating when a base becomes unruly, or does something unpredictable ( because they just don't make em like the used to ). It's a bit like watching a really good passing move in football break down because of a crappy pass.

I don't really have a problem with polishing personally. I'm pretty much able to talk and polish at the same time. In much the same way that others are more than capable of rolling a cigarette whilst holding a conversation. But if we are going to ban polishing after the first game, then don't bother having it from the start, as it's worn off after one game anyway.

Laughing

3. Not quite sure what you mean here without specifics, Ian. Is it reference to equipment or rules, or something different? I do think that there seems to be a lot of prejudices with regard to which code of subby you play, and unfounded in my opinion. But I also appreciate that when somebody gets something in their head, they will always look for evidence to support it rather than question it. It's a bit like casting the dye. You 'colour' everything you experience from then on.

I know, and appreciate that you have had personal clashes with some in the FISTF game, but I don't think any individual should be seen to be representative of a code of play. The game is much bigger than any one person.

From my personal experience, I have now played a couple of ESTFA gigs, in addition to playing a handful of OldSubbuteo gigs, and socially they are the same. In terms of sportsmanship, I have also found them to be the same. In terms of fun and enjoyment, again, no different. The only real difference I have found is the quality of equipment used, and the rules.

So I wouldn't state a preference for one or the other.

4. Never used them, so not sure just how much fun they bring to be honest. I'm sure they do a job, and bring a new dimension to the game. And the off chance that you can drop a ball on a players head in the box is an appealing one.

Is it possible to throw the ball the full length of the pitch with a throw in figure, Ian?

5. Flicking techniques. This is probably the bit that is going to be difficult to strike a balance with. If it's just a bit of fun, then what does it really matter? Or is it something that could be reduced / eradicated if matches were refereed, given that the culprits don't often commit the crime and then pull themselves up on it, and the opponent unlikely to question it. But then, is reffing games one of the table football vibes that you touched on?

These are all good points, Spud. A great start to what promises to be a lively debate, and hopefully a winning recipe for future dates.

As a footnote, and more to do with recent tournaments, rather than Lionhearts gigs ..

I have spent hard earned money buying some very nice teams that I would dearly love to play matches with ( thinking it would enhance the enjoyment all the more ), but find it really frustrating that we have this sales push for Santiago teams at every turn now, and so I can't use them. Sorry, but I don't buy beautiful teams just to look at. Like beautiful women - they need to be played with too.

Wink

I know that it has been introduced ( or I think this is the reason ) to represent an equaliser of sorts. A kind of insurance that everybody uses the same stuff, and doesn't have a playing advantage. But surely you could just stipulate what is and isn't acceptable?

That said, I appreciate that others might really like the supplied team theme, so I am not making it wrong, just sharing my own personal disappointment and preference with reasoning.

The themed tournaments aren't really firing my imagination. I guess, because the results just appear to be a meaningless reference, or am I missing something? I mean, fun and enjoyment has been had for sure, but what of the scores. For all the interest in whether somebody flicked Brazil or Italy, or which country or club was actually flicked to glory, why bother even scoring the games?

Gents, I am not asking these questions to dig or undermine. On the contrary, I am probing for answers and trying to provoke some deeper thought into what might, not only preserve this great game, but help ensure that there is still OldSubbuteo being played, and appealing to the younger generations, when we are no longer fit to flick.

scratch


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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:20 pm

And yes, GULLY and LEE would be great additions!

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:35 pm

If after this, perhaps we can poll some stuff to determine what the Lionhearts recipe is going to be in the future. Then everybody, old or new, will get the flavour of the flick, and can then make a choice as to whether they want a taste.

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:40 am

I can fully understand your Sentiments Steve, but we have to remember we are an Oldsubbuteo Club and not a Table Soccer Club. There is a difference, i'm sure you'll agree. We play Subbuteo and not Table soccer...or try too.

Therefore, we have Rules and regs to follow, just as Original Subbuteo had, and as well as FISTF. That includes the type of figures and bases used.

I understand, you can have fun in all forms of the game, but if you can get everyone singing off the same hymn sheet, it certainly helps and makes for more fun. Me and Ralph tried playing Subbuteo against Table Soccer opponants at the Lancashire Pumas, and although we had fun socialising with a great bunch of lads, the actual way the game was played didn't make it that enjoyable.

Tbh, even playing in certain Oldsubbuteo Tournements has become tiresome for me on occassion. Playing against a line of seven defenders, and more polish than the Russian front... It sometimes doesn't resemble Subbuteo or Football.

For me, it's all about having a laugh. I played Fingers and Foxy at Ely and have never had so much fun. The ball was pinging about everywhere, and we were all lost in the moment.

Letting errors go for the sake of the game, josling and hustling in the box at corners...that sort of thing, makes it for me.

Also...Having to spend time playing against someone who will hardly speak to me or even raise a smile, as they are taking it so serious, is not fun.

As for the flicking, there are a couple of lads who panick and literally drag their players into position. Yes...we don't want to take it seriously, but at least try to keep to playing in the correct way. Otherwise what's the point? Others have mentioned this too me also.

As for the bases irregularity and behaving unrulely, imho... Fantastic. Just like in real football, the unpredictable happens. As for Santaigo and Topspin, it's all in the weighting. Get that right, and they act exactly the same as the Originals. I honestly don't think there is a Sales push for Santiago. It's just Mark is prepared to paint the teams at the Cheapest price.

I've no problem with anyone playing any code. I thought Wycombe mixed it up for everyone to indulge in their prefered bases?

As i said earlier Steve... I've always thought the idea of the Club was to play Subbuteo, with Subbuteo HW figures and bases or equivelent, as we did as kids, with that kids mentality. Oldsubbuteo regs were the nearest to that. And that there was an already established movement with similar ethics for us to join.

I mentioned in my previous posts, ideas that may make it even more fun, as even the Oldsubbuteo movement has it's faults imho, but it's as near as damn it, if you get my drift.

All food for thought. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:08 am

i have really enjoyed my times playing with all you guys over the last couple of years that i have started to play the game again and also the way everyone has made me welcome into the subby community , im still learning all the time and playing guys like jim is awsome as he is always encouraging me to score Laughing which to be honest does not happen to much and helping with advice throughout the game .

regarding the throw in figures and corner takers we used them on sunday at fingers and they were a great addition to the day ,so i have no issue with using them again

for me it is timing with dates , as for a lot of us we have families which brings other commitments . If i have nothing planned and i get the green light from mrs spurs Wink I will try my hardest to get to any meets

I am still playing with adam , jeff jordan etc in chingford once a month but again this is not always possible with work commitments but i will attend when ever possible . playing tomorrow night in fact


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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:07 am

I agree with you, Ian.

I'm not suggesting Old Subbuteo welcomes modern bases, or anything like that. It is obvious, as you say, that there is a difference between the two codes, and I don't think an attempt to merge them is a workable or agreeable concept.

That said, Table Football is a relative, and may actually come up with some good ideas worth adopting. I'm not saying they have, and that we should. I'm just thinking it's always good to keep an open mind. After all, Subbuteo didn't stand still in it's glory days. It was forever trying to evolve and better itself. That's what everything does in this world, in order to survive and keep it's appeal, doesn't it? In a world where nothing is permanent, it is impossible to stand still. If you're not growing, you're diminishing as a consequence.

Just to clarify ...

I like OldSubbuteo being OldSubbuteo, and Table Football being Table Football.

And there is no debating, playing Subbuteo with 'Fingers' is an absolute joy!
But that's not credit to OldSubbuteo, that's credit to Steve Moreton, and let's not forget that. The good things we're talking about here, are the top personalities that play, not the format / structure / rules of an organisation.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be miffed about poor flicking technique ( against the rules ), but celebrate a foul contact ( a bit of pushing and shoving in the box - also against the rules ). That might be a bit confusing to any newbie? Or would you just tell them you're allowed to play it however you see fit, regardless of the good opinion of others?

Laughing

So far we have two very good vibes on the table ...

Idea

1. Subbuteo is the best game ever!

2. Fingers and Foxy have to play in every Lionhearts gig!



Lee ... Is the Chingford club an OldSubbuteo set up?
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:16 am

[quote="spudski"]I can fully understand your Sentiments Steve, but we have to remember we are an Oldsubbuteo Club and not a Table Soccer Club. There is a difference, i'm sure you'll agree. We play Subbuteo and not Table soccer...or try too.



Tbh, even playing in certain Oldsubbuteo Tournements has become tiresome for me on occassion. Playing against a line of seven defenders, and more polish than the Russian front... It sometimes doesn't resemble Subbuteo or Football.



Letting errors go for the sake of the game, josling and hustling in the box at corners...that sort of thing, makes it for me.

Also...Having to spend time playing against someone who will hardly speak to me or even raise a smile, as they are taking it so serious, is not fun.



As i said earlier Steve... I've always thought the idea of the Club was to play Subbuteo, with Subbuteo HW figures and bases or equivelent, as we did as kids, with that kids mentality.

Nailed it Ian , excellent couple of posts , there's a lot of what I wanted to say in there , thank you for that .
Sunday at Steves was one of the best afternoons I've ever spent in my life .Serious praise to the guy for the effort he put in to make it so .The turn out of members though was a bloody disgrace to be honest Crying or Very sad I'm not pointing the finger at folk who were too ill either , before everyone thinks "oh crap Foxy's come back on here and he's kicking off " I just cannot get my head around people who claim to love playing Subbuteo , yet when the guy with a Stadium that's been 36 years in the making (and is still ongoing ) offers the chance for a Lionhearts meet to take over his home and actually flick on THE hallowed baize , only Dee , Lee , Daniel (who to his credit came at short notice AND doesn't drive !!!!!!) and myself bothered to turn up .It was 280 mile round trip for me and the Mrs , we would've attended had it been double that , and I'm on little more than minimum wages and Dee's disabled ffs .I know Steve was very disappointed , but he's too nice a chap to say too much .I however have no problem telling it as I see it .I have a lot more things to add on this thread ,but it's getting late now and I've needed to get the above off my chest for a couple of days now .
Jim

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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:06 pm

I think it's good to get it out there, Jim.

The more open people are the better, otherwise lots of assumptions are wrongly made.

I for one, do love playing Subbuteo, and the idea of a flick in that wonderful stadium has massive appeal. But from my personal perspective, nothing even comes close to bedtime hour with my two young kids. I've only ever missed one, and that was driving back from your place in Andover, Jim, after my debut flick with the Lionhearts.

I loved that day. But felt really bad all the way home. Having the odd day pass is one thing, but to not see your kids and spend time reading to them before they go to sleep isn't on at their age. I know that people will view the responsibilities of parenting differently, but that's my view. That said, Joe is getting older now, and will soon be able to come with me.

I think this is why it is such a good idea for people to say what they feel on this thread. People need to know what other people place a value on, and how strongly they feel about those values.

I remember trying to organise a tournament to raise money for charity. SIXTEEN people, plus reserves expressed an interest. FIVE turned up on the day! Mark Smith showed, even though he was ill, because it was for a good cause. And yet, many chose not to participate just because the games were being played on an Astropitch with Sureshot bases ( supplied / painted and auctioned by Mark on ebay after the event - the only method we could come up with to raise a bit of money - because the 2K4 figures and Sureshot bases were readily available and free / donated ).

We talk about playing for fun and keeping things light, and yet people chose to not support the event because it wasn't OldSubbuteo. Yet, everything was supplied and the venue already paid for. In short, it was another social gig, and an opportunity to just play and experience something slightly different under familiar rules for a good cause, and in familiar company.

I think that probably lots of people have felt let down or disappointed by an outcome in the past, and maybe some kind of clearing is a good thing.

I don't mind differences of opinion, and I do respect a straight talker.

Back on the Lionhearts topic ...

I do remember Lionhearts having a discussion about similar topics about a year and half ago, which is what triggered the request for me to put the forum together. One I hasten to add, that sat idle for a year while Lionhearts players chose to still discuss Lionhearts meetings on the green forum and largely ignore the time and effort that went into it. Infact, it took a personality clash to trigger any kind of interest.

Out of those discussions, a number of set dates were finalised that we could all plan around, far ahead of the meeting, to ensure as many as possible could attend. It really looked like it was a club that was going to be about everybody. So I planned family events around those dates, only for all the dates to be changed, without consulting members, further down the line. Consequently, I had to miss the next three events.

Neutral

The gig previous to the Fingers event, was organised on the same day that clashed with a number of players already committed to playing at Wycombe. Confusion reigned, and in the end neither took place.

Mark lost heart with it all, and decided he had pretty much had enough of being messed about. There hasn't been a ball flicked at Wycombe in over two months now, and all three leagues have been scratched.

Idea

So I think it would be good if there was some kind of team effort in organising things and making decisions, and it not all be left entirely to one person each time.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:45 pm

Can't believe THE TIME!

Shocked

I can feel your irritation, Jim, but you're not alone.

As I sit here now, thinking about it, you are probably right, mate. There are probably not enough people singing from the same hymn sheet to make this all work for a larger group of enthusiasts. There are just too many considerations ... not being considered, sadly.

Crying or Very sad

Look, whatever happens ...

I've loved playing games with you fellas, and I am grateful to you all for the experience. Gonna wrap up my input here, I think, and keep my fingers crossed that it all works out for the Lionhearts. It would be nice to see things snowball over here in the same way the old game has in Italy.

santa
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:09 pm

some interesting stuff there chaps...for me as regards the Oldsubbuteo Tournaments I really do think we should at least

1 Ban polishing

2 Play On Baize

3 Insist on recognised football formations

4 Do something about the flicking issue

might be a start to give out a sheet with the teams just highlighting a few points regarding formations/flicking technique and specifying no polishing ?
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:16 pm

for me the flicking is a major issue I played a lad at Ely last time who committed an infringement almost every time he made a block/positional flick I beat him 2-1 - now he eventually made the 3rd level Final or whatever you call it and won against Achim..seems ridiculous to me that given the many rules we have the most glaring of all is generally ignored ?
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:24 pm

Well i feel terrible now for letting Steve down. However...he'd hate me even more if he caught the Flu off me. And i don't think i would have had the energy to even drive their let alone play...still feel gutted.

Some good points raised by everyone. I'm going to take time to digest it all.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:05 am

Don’t worry Spudder – when I think about Sunday, the only feeling I get is a mixture of excitement that genuine subbuteo enthusiasts were losing themselves in the experience and a strange feeling of reminiscence of that day (already!) Laughing

I’ll upload some clips as soon as I get a chance...

I think this discussion is aptly timed, and I must admit that after playing the game and being engrossed in the ‘hobby’ for over a third of a century, I find it really hard to capture what it’s all about. scratch

It’s something around the ability for men (in particular) to engage in something, regardless of background/age/nation/creed/language etc. I can play an Italian who speaks no inglese (and take is at read that I speak no Italian!), and can sense straight away that they have the green Subbuteo light in their eyes. Camaraderie is instant and the world is a better place! Cool

It’s also around indulging in the hobby makes me think productive, creative and focused thoughts – encouraging me not to linger in of any of life’s negative aspects that might be bothering me...For example, just the thought of putting Vikash’s mother and deceased grandfather in the stadium (in the ‘Ma Ramnath’s Spicy Spoon’ hut) would make me smile inside. Very Happy

However, I do think that there are a few key ingredients for success for meets.

1. There should be an underpinning set of values, which are lived out at all events . These should celebrate inclusivity and participation.

2. Rules need to be agreed and promoted (whatever they are) by the Lionhearts oldsubbuteo community. NB The Italian Oldsubbuteo Council support adaptations to the stated rules, as long as the spirit of oldsubbuteo is held true. Therefore different events can have different rules (e.g. baize pitches, formations and use of corner-kickers, polish etc. could be implemented for some events and not others.) I’m aware of an Italian ‘no-polish’ tournament, where the adjudicators (in a light-hearted manner) wipe all players bases on their hands to make sure they don’t flick more than 6 inches in a straight line! Shocked

If the above are in place it appears to work quite well. For example, the ‘dodgy flickers’ are made a little more aware of the requirement for ‘a more focused flicking effort’, and the victims of dodgy flicking feel more able to comment on the dodginess of the flick, with a bit on banter. Let’s face it – when I played Jim on Sunday there were finger fouls, the odd scrape, the ‘panic-shove’, and the pragmatic ‘leaning over 3-tiers of terracing’ thumb flick! All given and suffered in good oldsubbuteo spirit! geek

That’s not to say rules don’t matter – they do – they encourage a sense of order and reduce the likelihood of unnecessary disgruntlement. However, when 2 players can agree to turn a blind eye to the odd rule for the sake of bonkersness and inspiration, the light of oldsubbuteo burns brightly! sunny

NB just for info, here is the oath and a few of the values of the Southend-on-Sea OldSubbuteo Club.

Oath

I, (name), hereby solemnly declare that I will flick to my best ability and enjoy every game I play against any opponent regardless. It will be an honour to win, an honour to draw and an honour to lose!

Values:

(i) We support the concept of oldsubbuteo to the highest standard and values.
(ii) We promote an open climate where innovation and improvement can thrive.
(iii) We will show understanding of everyone’s situations with patience and understanding.
(iv) We are always seeking to expand the oldsubbuteo community through mature working arrangements with all partners.
(v) We respect the rights of all individuals and seek to understand their needs
(vi) We will explore how diversity can add value in all aspects of oldsubbuteo and celebrate and promote success.
(vii) We work with all local oldsubbuteo communities and seek to support the development of the diversity of our respective members.
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:21 am

Great Post Steve... cheers
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ESSGEE

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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:41 am

Lovin' the VALUES, Stevie Wonder!

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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:06 am

this has been a great read guys - good to see the passion is still there

especially like the values steve ;-)

maybe if there is a fingers 2012 meetup, i will join - didn't think it right to ask to come this year as I'm more of a collector than a player and need to improve before my flicking is allowed on the southend maracana:oops:
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subbuteo forever 207

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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:08 am

gents,

wow i didnt know all this discussion had gone on as for some reason not getting emails telling me of new posts.

we did do a sort of review of lionhearts back in march and i have still got the email responses from everyone (not only do i collect subbuteo i also seem to collect emails about subbuteo).what came out of it was that most people didnt mind too much about structure so long as it was old subbuteo and fun.

the majority wanted a season league as well as a day tournament which we then formed.

with regards fixutre setting we do set the proposed dates so far ahead that i didnt think it was really a problem to change them slightly given that most people dont commit one way or the other until quite close to the event.i am sorry moving some dates affected you steve as i genuinely didnt think it would be an issue.

more than one person has said to me that subbuteo clubs dont last too long as people seem to move to other things which to some extent has been true.eg, wycombe,essex midweek and the new west london league all seem to have to some extent made people go off in other directions.sadly reg's back means hes out and he was also a mainstay and founding member.

i am only committed to lionhearts (my midweek league was as a means of improving my game for the lionhearts meets) and i was gutted to miss my first ever meet last weekend.Jim has been there nearly every meet and is very supportive of the club and vic jones has also been the same until recently.

essentially we need commitment to play once every six weeks and for people not to cancel a few days before.in my opinion this is the only way it will survive. if i say i am playing i play unless i am ill. i dont see whats so difficult with that.

as far as the culture of it goes, i like fingers seven points above and i would like to adopt them as the basis of the club.

i doubt you will get everyone to agree on everything but so long as it based on old subbuteo and played for fun with chat about the game and the hobby then thats all that matters to me.

polishing in between games is not a problem for me but people disappearing for five minutes in between a game and THEN polishing does hold the day up a bit.

if a person or persons are not flicking properly then its probably just ignorance of how to do it properly so i think then at that point the other player(s) should show how its done.certainly i have found experienced players at lionhearts very helpful in educating me as to how things should be done as when lionhearts started in 2009 i had only played a couple of games at jims house.i doubt less experienced players would mind getting pointers.

i reckon formation should basically be a maximum of five defenders and a minmum of one striker and that should ensure open matches with lots of goals and good defensive blocking because a player cant then just rely on a wall of players to do the defending just because they are on the pitch.

all rules and cultural matters can be agreed but essentially the most important part is people committing to play and not dropping out.

easiest test to see if lionhearts has a future is to see how many of us commit and turn up to the next meet - i have posted today under "fixtures" the choise of 4/12 or 11/12 so let me know your availability under that thread.

we can perhaps in between now and the next meet thrash out a basic set of guidelines for the club.

oh and lets be proud that lionhearts has been going for over two and a half years.cheers
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subbuteo forever 207

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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:09 am

akumulator wrote:
this has been a great read guys - good to see the passion is still there

especially like the values steve ;-)

maybe if there is a fingers 2012 meetup, i will join - didn't think it right to ask to come this year as I'm more of a collector than a player and need to improve before my flicking is allowed on the southend maracana:oops:

but paul thats fine mate.i am a collector who plays and its through lionhearts i have learnt to play.come along!!
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PostSubject: Re: LIONHEARTS in FUTURE   Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:51 am

Very Happy Some great posts here chaps bounce
Basically , first and foremost , I want fun , banter , jostling with fingers bom and to feel it was worth while and a great days flicking when I'm driving home .
The League , really not bothered , but happy to go with the flow , win , lose or draw , don't care really , don't get me wrong , I never set out to lose a game , but hey
, just saying results aren't the b all and end all with me .
The polishing ,7 , 8 or 9 defenders on the shooting line etc gets on my t*ts , seems to me some players want to play fistf , just with different equipment , look guys I've learned to live with it (just ) but I'm never going to think that it's the right way to play Subbuteo ok , I will TRY my best NOT to moan about it Wink
Have to say though , there was zero polishing done in Southend last Sunday sunny
Incorrect flicking Evil or Very Mad occurs mostly when blocking tbh , just use the NAIL guys not the side or back of finger , will be bringing this up in future games , if it happens , however as Steve said , the odd faux pas does happen in the heat of the moment .
To finish up , I went to SOF Sunday last, thinking it would be my last Lionhearts (seriously ) However , the feeling I got when Steve led me through to the Stadium room was magical , to actually play in it , and score a few goals was just unbelievable , my words can't do it justice , one of the best 8 hours I've ever spent , yep I'm that passionate about Subbuteo , anyone that really knows me , knows that .I've flicked over 4 decades , I really can't imagine life without it .
By and large Lionhearts has been great , the odd downer , dodgy individual , but I'd like to leave that behind , and look forward to some more good times .
I'm still well up for it guys , are you ?????????
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